Ladies and Gentlemen,

Craftbots have been evolving! We have taken onboard the wishes of our customers, friends and partners and packaged them in our, soon to be launched range! Here is a little taster of what is to come. The hawk-eyed among you will notice the exciting developments for sure!

CraftBot Flow Teaser

October 18, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

24 replies


Very nice!

So after the just released upgraded Craftbot Plus (which is great, apart from the lack of a better extruder design similar to the CB3 that would be great for flexible filaments) it looks like we will soon get at least an additional two new or improved machines.

From what I saw, that would be upgraded versions of the Craftbot 3 as well as an upgraded Craftbot XL, both using the same parts:

  • bigger touch display
  • improved single fan airflow design for parts cooling
  • BL Touch sensor for automatic levelling/tramming (hopefully with mesh bed levelling?)
  • magnetically attached (and slightly flexible?) steel build plate
  • upgraded extruder design (along with what seems to be smaller motors with an additional gearbox in front?)
  • upgraded software with a new look for the user interface
  • filament runout sensor (even on the single extruder CB XL machine)
  • current design all metal hot-end similar to CB3 and new CB Plus

The one thing that cannot be seen would be a possible upgrade for the micro controller on the mainboard - I'd like to see a more powerful 32 bit one along with all the other upgrades. That would offer me all the improvements that I'd like to have, making this a must-have upgrade over my old CB Plus.

Keep it up! :)

October 18, 2019

Taliessin Taliessin
Beginner
41 posts

Nice guessing!
CraftBot Flow Teaser says:
"Our brand new CraftBot series based on your needs is coming soon with 4 new printers: 2 single and 2 independent dual extruder equipped 3D printers."

October 18, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

Taliessin wrote:
The one thing that cannot be seen would be a possible upgrade for the micro controller on the mainboard - I'd like to see a more powerful 32 bit one along with all the other upgrades.


The current CB machines are already 32 bit, as far as I know.

I'm also quite excited about this new generation. From the looks of it, they did a few very nice improvements while keeping the tank-like design (which I really like). From the pictures you can see linear rails being used (and also rods for the Y), so that's nice. It is most likely similar to the CB3 in that it is not really true CoreXY, which in my opinion is slightly unfortunate.

It still uses direct drive, not bowden (which is great, because bowden sucks).

I am really curious about the sizes of these new machines. I am hoping there is one that is about the same size as the CB+, because if we're talking CB3 sizes for all machines, I'm out. I don't have room for such a beast.

I hope this teaser will be followed by more information real soon, I can't wait to hear if there is actually a size that suits my needs!

October 18, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

Oh, so there might be a new CB+/CB2 form factor version as well? Or a dual extruder XL? Now I'm curious... :)

For me, having all the mentioned features on top of what the CB+/CB2/CB3 offer, something along the lines of the CB XL (maybe with a more square X/Y print area) would be the thing to upgrade to. If there is an option for dual extruders on that as well (maybe even upgradable later on) that would be great!

Are you planning for releases in time for Christmas? Or do we have to look forward to sometime early next year? Ok, maybe that's classified just as the return time for the combat mission mentioned in the "Airplane!" movie... :)

October 18, 2019

Taliessin Taliessin
Beginner
41 posts

All info will be revealed step-by-step until 4th of this November which is the official launch date of our new machines.

October 18, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

The teaser only says "coming soon", so we don't know what soon really is.

I did some image trickery on one of the images (the one where you see the machine from the front) from the teaser page, and by scaling it by the USB connector (which has a known size), it would seem to me that the overall width of the machine is around 50 cm, putting it squarely it in the "beast category" according to my definition. That is almost 10 cm wider than the CB+, and I don't have (or want to have) space for that.

I can only hope that this is the bigger sibling, and that there is one that is smaller. As Janos said, they are releasing 4 new printers, two with dual extruders and two without. It is reasonable to assume that means there will also be two sizes, but the size difference may only be in Z, and if so they are all as wide as the one in the picture. And that is too big for me.

Note: The image scaling technique is of course not very accurate since the USB connector is pretty small, but it is most likely in the right ballpark, at least.

October 18, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

mroek wrote:I did some image trickery on one of the images (the one where you see the machine from the front) from the teaser page, and by scaling it by the USB connector (which has a known size), it would seem to me that the overall width of the machine is around 50 cm, putting it squarely it in the "beast category" according to my definition. That is almost 10 cm wider than the CB+, and I don't have (or want to have) space for that.

Nice one! To be exact the width of that machine is 48.5cm
But hey, the build volume is wider/larger too!

October 18, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

Janos wrote:
mroek wrote:I did some image trickery on one of the images (the one where you see the machine from the front) from the teaser page, and by scaling it by the USB connector (which has a known size), it would seem to me that the overall width of the machine is around 50 cm, putting it squarely it in the "beast category" according to my definition. That is almost 10 cm wider than the CB+, and I don't have (or want to have) space for that.

Nice one! To be exact the width of that machine is 48.5cm
But hey, the build volume is wider/larger too!


I actually discovered that the filament guide tube holder is the same as for the CB2 (which I could measure, because I have one), and when I used that to scale the image, I got 48.6, so even closer to reality. :-)

Is that the smallest machine of the new lineup, then?

October 18, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

mroek wrote:Is that the smallest machine of the new lineup, then?

Yes, it is.

October 18, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

Ok. Since you did reveal the width of the machine, would it be possible to also know the depth? Is it less than 40 cm? Trying to figure out if I have space for it...

October 18, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

The teaser video shows some more images than the web page, and this image pretty much tells the full story of the motion system:

CraftBot Flow generation

In the back we can see there is a rod spanning the width of the machine, with bearing blocks in the side walls. It has three pulleys, one at each end, and one for the Y-motor, which drives this rod via a belt. We can see the belt from the motor coming up through a hole in the chassis.

The extruders ride on linear rails, and each extruder has its own motor which moves with the Y-axis. Single extruder machines obviously only have one X motor. This whole carriage then rides on rods with linear bearings. The bed is cantilevered, and rides on linear rails as well. A ball screw is used to raise and lower it, just as for the CB3.

In other words, no CoreXY here. The dual belts for Y should hopefully keep the gantry square at all times, but on one of the pictures at the teaser web page, we can see that there is no belt on the pulley at the rear right. I really hope that was just a mistake and the picture was taken of a machine not fully assembled, because there is no way this system can work properly without two belts, in my opinion.

I will also say that a dual extruder setup will make the gantry really heavy, with two steppers and two full extruders, and I am worried that this setup will cause pretty heavy ringing if you try to print at decent speeds. Will be interesting to see and hear this machine printing, and also hopefully close up images of the print results.

The dual extruder machine also has no less than four flex cables. Not an issue in itself, but in general the fewer moving cables the better.

October 19, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

Im still waiting to see when is going to be available

November 5, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

Still one most important thing missing pricing im planing to my replace my CB+ first gen to flow one but i need to know how much does it cost and is it worth to upgrade

November 6, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

Levent Ozigdeci wrote:Still one most important thing missing pricing im planing to my replace my CB+ first gen to flow one but i need to know how much does it cost and is it worth to upgrade

Prices will be revealed within a week.

November 6, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts

Every CraftBot Flow model can be remotely controlled through browser and supervised using its built-in wide lens camera.

CraftBot Flow generation

November 6, 2019

Janos Janos
Admin
586 posts


Janos wrote:Every CraftBot Flow model can be remotely controlled through browser and supervised using its built-in wide lens camera.

CraftBot Flow generation


neat

November 6, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

As far as I like the company but unfortunately prices are really high. I know its really good quality but still 2600$ price tag on mostly standart features on 2019-20 i will pass i think i was expecting single extruder and smallest version around 1500$

full auto bed leveling mostly standart on various printers
PEI coated spring metal deattachable bed ı dont think it will cost that much even you have still kapton tape on bed surface.
Full metal extruder are not really unique at this time they are not state of art extruders.

Camera is good thing i can totally pay for that but when ı compare to my First gen CB+ I dont see 2600$ differance sorry I was hopefull on pricing because most of the stuff we ask for it like I did ask linear rails when I start using my CB+ Also cable chain was really problematic which i fixed that issue with correct wires.

Im sorry im little upset because I was prepared to but new printer from CraftUnique

November 8, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

With those prices they really need to deliver outstanding products. If you pay that much, a very trouble-free experience is expected. As we all know, the CB3 came with loads of issues when it was first released, so I really hope this new generation has been thoroughly tested.

Where I live we have a VAT of 25%, so even the smallest machine will end up costing a fortune. I'm not going to lie, I'm also slightly disappointed at the pricing.

November 8, 2019

mroek mroek
Revered
534 posts

The single head folder is here. I have some questions about the swollen marketing talk on it....

For me it would be better to just clear tell "to the point" on that folder what is new and better , For example the LCD Screen. Seems about the same touch screen as earlier with the same functions. But it's bigger., Everyone knows bigger is better! Just say it's bigger, and not that it is "for the innovative design". What does that mean? People wouldn't even know it's bigger than earlier.

CraftBot Flow generation

The somewhat confusing legal terms / warranty are here to find.

And about the advertised 200mm/s:
as long I know the speed of the CraftBot is advertised as 200mm/s.
Even the firmware of the CraftBots until now is limited to 120mm/s

Also: I have made a hack: and at 200mm/s it isn't printing ok with normal acceleration settings: a lot of print shifts.

Now: also the new Flow series are advertised as 200mm/s machines. is that true? I can't imagine. Also: it seems the Flow serie isn't using the CoreXY system anymore. AS now the weight of a stepper motor is carried by the other stepper motor, that must reduce the max speed I think.

Is that 200mm/s is now actually possible? Or is it just a sales / lying thing as earlier?
Of course you can reach 200mm/s, if you set a super smooth and low acceleration value. But than you only reach that 200mm/s on very long and straight extrusions. And again: the firmware has to allow it. Until now it was hard coded to max 120mm/s (except when tweaking it on the fly).

Max Flow
And even that: so what if the extruder heads can move at 200mm/s in space? The amount of filament spitted out has to keep up with that XY speed.
And that melting capacity is actually called the "flow" . Seen the name of this series CraftBots, one should think that the maximum flow is a key feature of this new range of nice CraftBots. But is it? As I expect it takes the same 40W heater as earlier. And although the geometry of the hotend is improved probably, it's not likely the max flow is much better now.

But no manufacturer is advertising with the max flow of the printer, although that is much more limiting for 0.4mm nozzles and above regarding the print time and speed.
Each manufacturer should state that the max flow for PLA / ABS / PETG is such or so for it's printer.

For example: if the max flow of a printer for a specific filament is 12mm3/s, than it limits the print speed in XY As well because of the max flow. When/if you print with a 0.8mm nozzle and 0.6mm layer height, that is a surface spitted out of 0.8*0.6=0.48mm2.
If the max flow is 12mm3/s, than the max XY Movement while printing is 12/0.48=25mm/s. That's way less than normally set in a slicer, resulting in a skipping extruder motor.
Actually, a common max flow of 16mm3/s for PLA with a 40W heater, and a standard 0.4mm nozzle and 0.3mm layer height is already resulting in 16/0.4*0.3=133mm/s. So even with a standard set up, it's not possible to print at 200mm/s.As already the max flow of melting filament is limiting the actual XY printing speed.
That option should be in Craftware. A setting with the used filament and belonging max flow of the specific CraftBot / printer. And made in that way that the print speed is not overruling the max flow of the extruder.



November 21, 2019

Bartaar Bartaar
Service partner
1686 posts

I almost agree with Bart.
Kapton Tape was my first disappointment. When I get my CB+ First gen After fiddling around I instantly replace the Kapton to 1mm thick PEI sheet. Because Kapton tape is really easy to damage really low adhesion compared to PEI and it Sucks at ABS printing no matter what settings you use. And interestingly couple of engineers on Craftunique ask me what was on my printer bed when I publish how to print ABS topic. I still has no issue on ABS printing even Day long parts. No warping( No enclosure btw) just PEI itself helps and 110 bed degree. I was expecting at least PEI or some what special coating Definetly NOT KAPTON TAPE on this price range.

Secondly Im upset about getting rid of Core XY. It is most efficient motion system AFAIK for 3D printing. Less moving weight is always better. I dont like idea of Bowden extruders they are the worst.

Third Drivers as Bart said are those new drivers Trinamic tmc2130 or some variants? does printer has sensorles homing etc? and other features ?

For printing speed I think they advertise as CNC machines.Like Rapids 200mm/s Feed 120mm/s it would make much more sense.

For Filament monitoring system. I never experience with monitoring system but I can trust Bart. Also I never have a jamming/ clogging issue after I installed Filament Dust filter which come with Barts kit.CraftBot Flow generation

Mesh bed leveling I have questions.In 2019-2020 era most of the printers has this feature. Some of them also adjusts the plate with little motors. Some of them compensates the Z difference with active Z motor. Also some of them aligns the build mesh squareness on printer motion axis. eater with active compensation or instructs to adjust knobs. Which one new generation has?


New priner/ CNC boards mostly have IoT features. I think its not new thing maybe its new For Craftbots but not for Industry. Also you can get those board really Cheap like most advanced ones like 100$ with plus you can add touch screen, 16 motors up to 48 volts 5 amps if I remember correctly, etc.


Finally pricing. I know its really hard to develop something new but those features are not new just implemented on CB series. I know it still has cost to make the implementation but for starting 2600$ which looks gonna perform not better than my Upgraded CB+ ( 1000$) looks not good trade. Also for the people who has no printers still doesnt look good. You can buy Markforged ONYX Gen to like 4500$ and you can print contentious fibers( fiberglass or Carbonfiber) embedded on part which can dramatically effect the part strength. On CB side Idex printer Start 3200$and what can you do maybe colorfull prints on PLA or Pet-G which are brittle or maybe some small ABS or 2 parts at a time for 3200$ looks so expensive.

Linear rails I just say finally they using rails but I have a lot of questions on Z axis Rail parallelism because they only have 1 motion can sustainable other axis motions will be resisted due to the mechanism on linear rails. But due to its needs to align perfectly otherwise it can result increased resistance.

Camera is plus As I said before its neat feature I can pay for that.

Machine enclosure I always like the looks and rigidity of Craftbots. I have no doubts about it. I hope Craftunique makes good desiccation on new generation looks like I need to wait 2 year more for logical purchase. I was hyped about this generation looks like ı disappointment little bit .



November 21, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

This is the automatic XY offset calibration of the CB Flow dual extruder machines. Did not see this feature on other printers.


Semi automatic Z calibration exists on all Flow machines. Which means the touch probe will sample the distance from the nozzle tip to the build plate and will tell you how much you should adjust the knobs to be parallel surface to the gantry movement.

November 21, 2019

Bona Fide Bona Fide
Friendly
130 posts

Semi automatic Z calibration exists on all Flow machines. Which means the touch probe will sample the distance from the nozzle tip to the build plate and will tell you how much you should adjust the knobs to be parallel surface to the gantry movement.

This is the such a bad implementation. I tough it can adjust Z height differences while printing with moving Z axis up and down like Prusa Mk3 printers( btw it cost 750$). if still I need to turn the knobs I can do it with piece of paper. I dont need high end probe. Then whats the point ?

November 21, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts

This is a such a good implementation, because compensating throughout the whole print is a bad approach. Moving up and down during print may leave wobble on the surface of the print. Better to set the build plate level before print.

Mesh bed leveling is also implemented. The probe samples the whole build surface in a grid and will compensate in case of some unevenness through the first couple layers.

Additionally all of the flow machines have dual drive gearbox (5:1 ratio) extruder better than Bondtech! CB flow machines are superb machines!

I don't want to "sell" CB for you, just telling what I saw. If you are happy with Prusa, then use that.

The flexible steel build plate looks like this:

CraftBot Flow generation

November 21, 2019

Bona Fide Bona Fide
Friendly
130 posts

Bona,

Im not using Prusa I have CB+ First Gen and Im still happy with it You sound like offended I was trying to tell my expectations. I do apologize if I said something wrong.

November 21, 2019

Levent Ozigdeci Levent Ozigdeci
Honored
315 posts
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